20: Miner - Burrowing His Way Through The Arena

Daily Discussion 2/20/20 - 2/22/20: Miner - Burrowing His Way Through The Arena
After three years as a f2p player, this was a satasfying catch. I'm glad I didn't miss it.
Log armored Pekka (concept art)
We need a legendary building, how about a wizard tower?
TIL - Challenge Fisherman can get pulled by Cannon Cart (repost with video)
[Effort Post] Why Miner should not be nerfed(with data)
Oh boy...
Reverse Draft
After playing since my sophomore year roughly 3-4 years ago. I’m finally a lvl 13 :D
Bravest Firecracker!!�� Shots all the arena
Before you post anything on this sub
Witches before Bitches
Watch as my wallbreaker disappears for his magic trick:(
Ban posts just showing battle logs where they lost against overlevelled decks
Closest finish I’ve ever had.
As you should be
Don't do it
Lost your 4th, 5th etc. match in a row? stuck at 4500 trophies? read this before you complain, or not.
BEST GAME IVE EVER PLAYED!!! Shoutout to “nice” for making me stressed af for the last 5 minutes
The more you look at it the more cursed it gets
They should do an ebarbs rush game mode
Place your miner one block towards the centre to get the attention of both archer towers
Anyone got more then 50 gems? ( I’m not flexing, just asking )
Gob barrel dodged log and nado ��
Tikis-New Card With New Mechanics

Daily Discussion 2/20/20 - 2/22/20: Miner - Burrowing His Way Through The Arena

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 08:46 AM PST

Topic: Speculation Over an Alleged Nerf to a Vital Card

After u/Supercell_Seth stated that a popular card was going to get nerfed and the official Clash Royale subreddit asking to apologize to B-Rad, a well-established Miner pro it seems to much of the community that a nerf to Miner is in line. This has inevitably stirred a ton of discussion regarding the state of the card since it is a defining unit in the game that is loved by many, as shown by CWA's recent poll.

The intention of this post is to centralize discussion regarding this controversial change, and how it would ultimately affect the meta for the better/worse. Since Miner plays an integral role in various decks while synergizing with many cards, a nerf will without a doubt cause implications in some form.

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Stats and History

Level	Hitpoints	Damage	Damage per second	Crown Tower Damage
1	1000	160	133	64
2	1106	176	146	71
3	1210	193	160	78
4	1330	212	176	85
5	1460	233	194	94

The Miner was added to the game on 3/5/16 with the May 2016 Update.
On 18/5/16, a Balance Update increased the Miner's hitpoints by 6%
On 4/7/16, a Balance Update decreased the Miner's deploy time to 0.7 seconds (from 1 second). This change was not mentioned in any change notes and was later said to be unintentional by Supercell.
On 24/8/16, a Balance Update increased the Miner's deploy time back to 1 second and decreased his hitpoints by 6%.
On 1/7/19, a 'Rulebook' Update decreased the Miner's range from 1.3 to 1.2 (now classified as Melee: Medium).

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Discussion Questions:

Do you think Miner needs a nerf?
- What implications does Miner cause that merits him a nerf?
- What would you change about the card?
  - How would it impact the meta for the better?
- Would you change any of the cards that are commonly associated with Miner to compensate?

Do you think Miner is fine as-is?
- What impact does Miner have on the game that should allow him to remain as-is?
- What are the negative implications a nerf could bring into the meta?
  - What are some card synergies that a Miner nerf could notably weaken/ruin?
  - What cards should be buffed to compensate for the nerf?

submitted by /u/Bo5sj0hnth1n3H4MM3R
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After three years as a f2p player, this was a satasfying catch. I'm glad I didn't miss it.

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 02:21 PM PST

submitted by /u/HydratedHydra
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Log armored Pekka (concept art)

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 04:51 AM PST

submitted by /u/ritzz2_0
[link] [comments]

We need a legendary building, how about a wizard tower?

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 05:37 PM PST

submitted by /u/Icywarhammer500
[link] [comments]

TIL - Challenge Fisherman can get pulled by Cannon Cart (repost with video)

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 10:47 AM PST

submitted by /u/Firebrigade9
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[Effort Post] Why Miner should not be nerfed(with data)

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 12:55 PM PST

Miner seems to be the hot topic right now, especially with Supercell(stupidly) confirming it'll be nerfed. We've all seen the tweet, and since then, multiple posts have been made about it, some giving suggestions, some talking about the effects it'll have, and then a moron fantasizing about the "death of shoveler toxin" even though Miner won't die unless it's an over the top nerf, which it won't be, confirmed by B-Rad on Twitter, and also because the real problem is the Miner+Wall Breakers+MA deck, not Miner itself.

Now, if you pay attention to RoyaleAPI data every season like I do, you'll notice that Miner was always within the 15-20% range for usage and had a consistent 50-53% Win Rate, which is balanced. But, coincidentally, once Wall Breakers were added and buffed to 2 elixir, Miner usage skyrockets all the way to the current 30+% it is right now, and the Win Rate jumps all the way up to the 53-55% it is now. This should tell you what the real problem is. It's Wall Breakers and Magic Archer, and for everyone spamming "dAtA sUpPoRtS mE" it doesn't. You're looking at a cause and effect relationship and you're conveniently ignoring the cause because of your hatred for cycle decks. Part of it is fueled by having no replacements, no one cares about the Baby Dragon nerf because that was unnecessary and actually didn't really touch its rates much, if at all, and Mega Minion was nerfed because its stats were through the roof, essentially being a 3 Elixir flying Mini PEKKA that could even take on swarm, and stop a Lavahound for minimal damage. Miner has balanced stats, they're nothing out of the ordinary for a 3 elixir card. It has 1000 HP, which is just 6 more than Ice Golem(2 elixir) and a full 452 lower than Knight, who trades Miner's offensive capabilities for much stronger defensive capabilities, including more damage and the ability to one shot goblins.

In fact, it actually has one of the lowest cost/HP ratios for a mini tank in the game

Valk- 1654 HP/4 Elixir=414(413.5 rounded) HP per elixir

Knight- 1452 HP/3 Elixir=484 HP per elixir(This also applies to anyone saying Valk should be nerfed for "having too much HP for the cost"

Miner- 1000 HP/3 Elixir= 333(333.33 rounded) HP per Elixir(same as Royal Ghost)

Ice Golem- 994 HP/2 Elixir= 497 HP per Elixir

Yes, I know, none of those are win conditions, so I'll give some HP/cost ratios for other tanky win conditions:

Hog Rider- 1408 HP/4 Elixir= 352 HP per Elixir

Giant- 3275 HP/5 Elixir= 655 HP per Elixir

As you can see, Miner has one of the lowest HP/Cost ratios of any mini tank/tank in the game, which is especially bad because it's a win condition, meaning it needs all the HP it can get. This completely debunks the argument I've been seeing where people say "it's too tanky for 3 elixir." That's a baseless claim, as proven above

As for the value the card provides, yes it's valuable, but at 3 elixir, plenty of cards can provide just as much, if not more value

Princess, which can provide immense defensive value if it survives, which isn't too hard in bait decks, and in those same bait decks, can also function as a secondary win condition of sorts, being able to get almost guaranteed chip damage, on top of its very high defensive value, and is actually the most valuable card in the game with its range, splash, chip ability, and versatility.

Another 3 elixir card, Knight, can provide immense defensive value, with a fairly high HP/Cost ratio, good damage, and decent DPS. The knight can solo every ranged unit in the game alongside sparky and is a great tank in both LogBait and Graveyard, where it actually has pretty good offensive/counterpush potential after getting good value on defense.

I'm sorry for mentioning so many bait cards but Goblin Gang is another strong card, with split-lane defense/offense capabilities, spell resistance, and anti air, as well as the ability to melt mini tanks fairly quickly and even being able to stop cards that normally counter it, like Mega Knight, Dark Prince, Ghost, and even Valk if placed correctly. Surviving goblins can translate to a nice counterpush

Royal Ghost can also provide just as much, if not more value than Miner. For 3 elixir it forces a response, doing much more damage per hit and having Splash Damage, the Royal Ghost is a force to be reckoned with on both sides of the Arena. It can stop many threats, both swarms and other mini tanks, and if it survives with even 1 HP, you have to either exhaust more elixir defending it or it'll take a chunk out of your tower.

None of the cards I mentioned are OP if that's what you were getting from this.

Next, let's look at Pro Player reactions to the infamous Twitter Thread

Pro Players, like KFC for example, responded with facepalm gifs, that alone should tell you everything you need to know. Before I get hit with the argument "THEY ALL DEFEND IT BECAUSE THEY USE IT" like every mention of Pro Players does, KFC does not main Miner. And that's just one of the handful of Pro Players on there.

Data is more important, yes, but this doesn't mean you can cherry pick data from the 2 offending seasons and spam in response to every and any Miner defense. You have to actually analyze all the data. Miner, pre-Wall Breaker buff, maintained a steady 15-20% usage, and you can confirm this yourself with WayBackWhen machine. Miner was, and still is, a balanced card. Using data from last season, and this season, just proves you know you're wrong. If Miner is so OP and in need of a nerf, why won't you show the data from before Wall Breakers were buffed? That's right, because it would prove you wrong. Isn't it convenient how Miner usage shot up the second they were buffed? That right there should tell you what the problem is, that is how you use data, you actually analyze it.

What I've been seeing is a combination of cherrypicking data as well as the inability to analyze the "cause" of a cause and effect relationship

Pre-WB- Miner sits at 15-20% Use, 51-53% Win

Cause- Wall Breakers were buffed to 2 Elixir+Magic Archer buff

Effect- Miner's usage rate shoots up to 34% and the Win Rate shoots up to 53-55%

So if anything the data supports leaving Miner alone and nerfing WB and MA instead, which are what make the Miner Wall Breakers deck broken in the first place.

If Miner was truly "OP" then why are decks that feature the Miner as the sole win condition, like B-Rad's Miner Poison deck, struggling? Why aren't they meta? Why is it that the only Miner decks that are meta right now have either Bats or Wall Breakers? Why is it that the most OP deck in the game right now is a Miner+Wall Breaker deck? If Miner was truly overpowered, then decks featuring Miner as the sole win condition would be dominating the meta, too. This alone proves Miner is not an issue, it's the cards it's paired with that make it an issue. So should we nerf Miner, which would hurt the already struggling sole Miner decks, or should we nerf the cards that actually make it an issue; Wall Breakers and Magic Archer? Seems like a pretty obvious choice to me

Surely it must be Miner that's the problem right? I mean that's why B-Rad is the only Pro Player using Miner as a sole win condition right? Is that why every current Miner deck features another win condition, with the best one just happening to have Wall Breakers and Magic Archer?

If Miner is overpowered, then why are decks with Miner as the SOLE win condition balanced/underperforming right now? Why is it that Miner only becomes a problem when paired with Wall Breakers and Magic Archer(not a win con but still relevant.)

Miner on it's own is fine, it only becomes a problem when you throw Wall Breakers into the mix. If Miner was truly OP, then every Miner deck would be dominating right now but this isn't the case. It's only when you throw Wall Breakers into the mix that it becomes an issue. This just further proves that the real problems are Wall Breakers and Magic Archer, and not Miner.

If this isn't enough proof that Miner doesn't need a nerf then I don't know what is.

Furthermore, the nerf suggestions I've been seeing are just absurd. How do you nerf Miner without killing it?

35% Crown Tower Damage= this is roughly a 12.5% nerf to Crown Tower damage. He has 160 damage, multiply by .35=56. TS Tower Health=2534, then 2534/56=45.25, rounded to 46 because you can't have .25 of a hit, whereas currently, if you do the math, it takes Miner(2534/64=39.5, rounded to 40) 40 hits to take a tower. This means Miner will need to hit the tower 6 more times to take it. All this does is harm decks with Miner as the sole win condition, which already struggle to get damage out, whereas the Miner Wall Breakers combo would not be effected, as a large portion of the damage in that deck comes from MA and Wall Breakers.

HP Nerf= Not only would this send his cost/HP ratio plummeting, but it would also, again, harm decks with Miner as the sole win condition NOT Miner+Wall Breakers, which we can all agree is the real problem, as it's the most broken deck in the game currently.

Hitspeed Nerf= this affects its already low DPS, again only hurting decks with Miner as the sole win condition but not Miner Wall Breakers, who only really need it for a couple swings here and there and to tank for Wall Breakers

Dig Speed nerf- This harms ALL miner decks, including Miner+Wall Breakers, but it also nerfs decks with miner as the sole win condition, or other underperforming Miner decks such as Miner Mortar Bait and Miner Loon Cycle, which are balanced/underperforming

Cost Increase= Would send HP/Cost ratio plummeting down to 250, which is in the league of "Fireballies" like Bandit(250), and the lower end of mini tanks, like Lumberjack(265.) This would kill it, and even with scaled buffs in stats it would maintain the same ratios and would still be a nerf as one of its main strengths is its cheap cost.

The ONLY WAY to nerf Miner Wall Breakers, as proven above, is the nerf WB and MA, which are the reason miner is used so much, and most people, including the best players in the world, agree that MA is too strong. Nerf those two, and you'll see Miner's use and win rate drop back down to their previous, balanced state

Another thing, which is obvious, is that the card is easy to counter. It's not really an argument, I know, because Shocktober Witch was the most OP card in the game at the time next to Elixir Golem, but it could be easily stopped with just Poison, and behind a tank then Poison Zap or Poison Log would put it down and still hit everything else in the push for a positive elixir trade.

Here are some great tips for countering Miner, no it's not "impossible." Notice how countering it only becomes an issue when Wall Breakers are thrown into the mix. See my point yet?

For the sake of discussion I will ping people on both sides of the Miner debate, and hopefully get a good debate going, but please keep the toxicity to a minimum, avoid it entirely if possible:

Edit: For more arguments, like for instance versatility, I made a post on that already, which gives even more reasons why it doesn't need a nerf

submitted by /u/lexiiiiiii456
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Oh boy...

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 04:23 PM PST

submitted by /u/Memo-701
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Reverse Draft

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 10:38 AM PST

We need a game mode called reverse draft, which is exactly what it sounds like. Triple draft except the enemy chooses your 8 cards, trying to create the worst possible deck. Both players battle it out with their opponent-picked deck. Suggestions?

submitted by /u/lumby_loon
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After playing since my sophomore year roughly 3-4 years ago. I’m finally a lvl 13 :D

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 05:05 PM PST

submitted by /u/BrandanMentch
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Bravest Firecracker!!�� Shots all the arena

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 11:33 AM PST

submitted by /u/Annypatil
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Before you post anything on this sub

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 01:43 PM PST

No, Mega knight does not need a nerf, wizard does not need a nerf, I don't know if there is any card this subreddit didn't want to be nerfed. Just get good and stop complaining here. You are noone to judge
Before asking for a deck, be sure that your deck:

1) Contains all of these

1-2 small spells, usually 1 but there are some decks that use two of them

1 big spell- not necessary in all of the decks but you should probably put one in your homemade deck

1 mini tank/ tank

1 building ( optionally)

2-3 air defence cards

1 ranged unit

Your deck should not be over 3.9 elixir unless you are playing some goblin giant sparky or Golem night witch or something

Cards you should avoid using:

Ebarbs, rage, mirror, wizard

Cards that are generally bad but have certain usage

skarmy, minion horde, freeze, MK I probably forgot some of them

Before posting about the glitch you found, check the subreddit to see if it wasn't already posted here 100 times before like the ballon challenge having wrong description or fisherman being frozen
If you are unsatisfied with matchmaking, nobody forces you to play the game, although in other games, you also won't be given all the cards and stuff for free. Just level up your cards.

5.Nobody cares that you won some random guy.

buT hE WaS uSiNG xBOw it no skill!!1!1! Even if it was no skill, still nobody cares that you won them with your hog freeze deck. Unless it is some really interesting replay don't post it here

That is all from me guys

Have a nice day

submitted by /u/234letelepileptiri
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Witches before Bitches

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 11:20 AM PST

submitted by /u/justRishiman
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Watch as my wallbreaker disappears for his magic trick:(

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 05:37 PM PST

submitted by /u/KonaGould
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Ban posts just showing battle logs where they lost against overlevelled decks

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 05:08 AM PST

Everyone has been there and it is pointless to post about it, supercell wont compensate you and they wont ban the overlevelled person just because he 3 starred you. Almost nobody on this subreddit wants to see how mistreated you are as a level 11 at the 4.6 k range. As everyone else you will eventually have your cards at level 12 and you will be able to easily beat those overlevelled players.

submitted by /u/bluetiti
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Closest finish I’ve ever had.

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 05:33 PM PST

submitted by /u/corbrat
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As you should be

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 11:06 AM PST

submitted by /u/DruncleBuck
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Don't do it

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 03:27 PM PST

submitted by /u/hello_brobro
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Lost your 4th, 5th etc. match in a row? stuck at 4500 trophies? read this before you complain, or not.

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 06:29 PM PST

Have you lost 4, 5, 6 or more games in a row?

Do you think it's unfair that the person beat you has a king tower that's significantly higher than yours?

Do you also think it's unfair that the player that beat you had maxed or higher cards than yours?

I understand your frustration. I've definitely had those matches. And I've been destroyed by maxed decks too. I'm writing this because I've read soooo many posts with these complaints and I'm feeling snarky and a little "helpful" at the same time.

Try and think about it like this, the problem isn't your king level or even your card levels. It's your inability to build a deck or play the cards you have in front of you (pre-built or your own). It's your elixir not being properly utilized as well as coming up against better players (slightly, greatly or they just got lucky) or they played decks that counter yours.

I've been beaten by lower level players, with lower card levels, just like I've won against people who had maxed cards and towers.

It's the luck of the draw. It's the mastery of a nuanced layered game. The people you play against are chosen based on their playing ability: trophies.

Put yourself in their shoes, they are level 12 or 13, with high level or maxed out cards and they have around the same amount of trophies as you. They are in the same boat as you, you just happen to be the person that they finally beat.

If they were "great" players you wouldn't be playing against them, not at this time in the season, sure at the start of a season when trophies are reset; but with 10 days left in the season... they aren't the cream of the crop. Though this is clearly changes as you go up the ladder. If you're stuck at a trophy count under, I would assume Master 3 - I'm assuming this cause this is who is typically complaining.

This game is difficult to master, and as the meta changes, your "good decks" will be garbage one week and maybe a winner the next.

Top players know the meta, know the rate at which cards are being used and based on a few cards you play, they can guess what else is in your deck, how much elixir you have to play and what cards are cycling up next.

Maybe do less complaining about things you can't control and engage in more discussion around what you're doing wrong, or how you can maximize the deck options that you have. You are on the Clash Royale sub, you're in the right place to learn something new.

So you have options, that's good right!?

Pay to play. Get the pass and spend $ to max out your cards. I'm going to be snarky and say that most of the people beating you are doing this to get higher faster and it's why they aren't at a higher trophy count (they have the cards, just not the skill to be well past you)
Learn the meta and learn how to card count and pay attention to your elixir
Learn how to build a solid deck - don't just rely on what's popular - but don't ignore it either.
Don't want to pay? Participate more in your clans wars, and all of the challenges that pop up. Depending on your clan, and how much you play, you can stand to gain lots of coin (it's feasible to gain 20-50k/wk with regular participation.

I'm sure there are other ways to get better, if you have suggestions add them below.

Edit: spelling

submitted by /u/Fixedentropy
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BEST GAME IVE EVER PLAYED!!! Shoutout to “nice” for making me stressed af for the last 5 minutes

Posted: 20 Feb 2020 03:26 PM PST